Is Bipolar Disorder Really a Diet Problem?

Mark Hyman, MD

Full Transcript

Automatically generated. Please forgive any typos or errors in the following transcript. It was generated by a third party and has not been subsequently reviewed by our team.

Iain Campbell
I live with bipolar disorder type two, so I started to have for the first time suicidal ideation.

Dr. Mark Hyman
The treatments can be helpful in mitigating some of the symptoms, they're rarely a 100% effective and they're often barely effective and they're definitely don't ever cause a cure. Doctor Ian Campbell is a neuroscientist and researcher exploring the radical idea that bipolar disorder might begin not in the brain, but in the body.

Iain Campbell
I didn't realize it was a kind of form of ketogenic diet. That's what it is. I felt like I'm thinking clearly about my life for the first time. I'm not depressed. I'm not manic.

If your brain can change like that and it changes who you are as a person, what does this mean about who we are? Are we just a bunch of chemicals that if they're disrupted, you become a different person?

Dr. Mark Hyman
What's really interesting that's unifying a lot of these mental health issues and chronic disease in general is Before we jump into today's episode, I wanna share a few ways you can go deeper on your health journey. While I wish I could work with everyone one on one, there just isn't enough time in the day, so I built several tools to help you take control of your health. If you're looking for guidance, education, and community, check out my private membership, the HymanHive, for live q and a's exclusive content and direct connection. For real time lab testing and personalized insights into your biology, visit Function Health. You can also explore my curated doctor trusted supplements and health products at doctorhyman.com.

And if you prefer to listen without any breaks, don't forget you can enjoy every episode of this podcast ad free with Hyman Plus. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap try free to start your seven day free trial. Ian, welcome to the doctor Hyman Show. It's really great to have you today.

Iain Campbell
Great to be here.

Dr. Mark Hyman
All the way from Edinburgh.

Iain Campbell
Yes. University Edinburgh. Yes. That's right.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's great. I I last time was there, think I was 17 years old. It was in 1977. I bet it's, probably hasn't changed a whole lot.

Iain Campbell
I love Edinburgh. There's such a tradition of history and science there. Many, the Royal Society and there's no end to inspiration for science in Edinburgh. So I've come wearing Tweed to represent my country.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I know, I noticed. I noticed you had a Tweed jacket on. Listen, I I I think we're gonna get into a topic today that I have been thinking about for a long time, and that is the whole field of psychiatry and what's wrong with it. Ever since I was in medical school and I spent a month in a psychiatric hospital, not as a patient, but as an intern and as a medical student, talking to people, listening to stories, seeing the abject failure of our mental health system to effectively treat and or cure mental illness. I mean, often the treatments can be helpful in mitigating some of the symptoms, but they're rarely 100% effective and they're often barely effective and they definitely don't ever cause a cure.

Our whole thinking about psychiatry is so fundamentally flawed that this whole labeling of people based on their symptoms doesn't make any sense because it's not looking at the root cause or the mechanism. You know, we have so many different ways of thinking about mental illness throughout history and we were just chitchatting a little before the podcast and I I talked about a book I read in college called Madness and Civilization by Michel Foucault, who is a French philosopher and he was talking about the different interpretations of mental illness throughout human history from visitation from the gods to possession by demons to, you know, Freud and his, you know, id and the ego and the superego and your, you know, sexual issues as a kid with your mother or whatever he thought. And then there was this sort of biochemical imbalance theory of Yeah. You have this biochemical imbalance and it wasn't so far off, there was some biochemistry involved but it wasn't Yeah. What they thought.

So many people suffers so terribly from mental health issues and globally it's almost a billion people. A billion people

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That suffer from some type of mental health issue and it could be anything from depression to, you know, which affects about almost four percent of the global population, to anxiety, to bipolar, which is one or two percent, schizophrenia, substance use, eating disorders. These cause so much human suffering and we've really never been able to nail it as a as a medical profession. Now when I wrote my book, The Ultramind Solution, 2009 it was published, it it was really clear to me that we were missing the boat. And that I was seeing kind of smoke signals

Iain Campbell
Yep.

Dr. Mark Hyman
From my patients' stories and from intervening with them with diet and nutrition and supplements and fixing their microbiome, dealing with environmental toxins, balancing their hormones and a whole host of things that I would do just to get them healthy. Yep. Because functional medicine essentially is a science of creating health. As a side effect, their psychiatric problems would get better. Yes.

And I was like, what's going on here? And that that's what led me to write this book and I called myself the accidental psychiatrist because I I was like, I had never intended to treat people's mental health issues. But whether it was schizophrenia or autism or Yes. ADHD or OCD or depression or bipolar disease

Iain Campbell
Yep.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I was seeing just like remarkable results. And it it made me really frustrated because no one was paying attention to this.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And at the time there was, you know, there was some literature. It was it was, you know, when I started to dig in and to sort of see if I could validate my clinical observations through looking at the scientific research, I was like, oh, there's People are kind of studying this a little bit and there's something here. Yes. And in the last couple of years it's just exploded with, Chris Palmer's book and Brain Energy about using a ketogenic diet. He's been on the podcast to treat schizophrenia by disease to the development of the metabolic psychiatry department at Stanford with Savani Sethi and, and the Department of Nutritional Psychiatry at Harvard and now at Edinburgh, you've got a whole metabolic psychiatry research infrastructure there that's quite amazing we're gonna talk about.

So I think, you know, I'm so thrilled to have this conversation with you because so many people out there suffer and they don't need to suffer and they suffer needlessly. We're able to apply what we know. And the problem is when most people go to their psychiatrist, they're practicing, you know, mid, you know, nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties medicine Yeah. And not twenty first century understanding of what happens in the brain. And I I said this a bunch before in the podcast, a saying in medicine that neurologists pay no attention to the mind and psychiatrists pay no attention to the brain.

Yes. And then we're gonna get into this in the podcast, I'm really excited to talk about this because we haven't really covered this, which what are the biological signals that the body gives off that can give clues about what's going on with mental health issues that we can detect through blood testing, biomarker testing, through genetics, through brain imaging. It's an incredible field, metabolomics. And we're seeing that there's a there there, it's not just in people's head, that there's actually, something really going on. And your story is pretty remarkable, Ian, because, you know, you you come at this as an academic, as a PhD, from Edinburgh as a researcher, interested in this subject, but you also come at it from a personal vantage point.

Or you yourself were suffering from a psychiatric illness. So maybe we can start by talking about your personal journey and it's it's actually on the very thing you're researching now.

Iain Campbell
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And and let's rewind the beginning of your journey. How was your life like before you discovered this whole field of metabolic psychiatry?

Iain Campbell
Yeah. So I definitely, shared the frustrations about psychiatry and mental health treatment from a patient perspective. I live with bipolar disorder type two, and I'm part of a community of many bipolar patients, people living with psychiatric conditions. And unfortunately, the suicide rates are very high at the moment, and there's real lack of remission in patients. And the level of suffering in these conditions is much more than many people are aware of.

They're devastating. I lost a family member to a psychiatric condition. My mother had a severe neurological illness. And and it really affects the whole family of the person and their whole network around them when you suffer from a psychiatric condition. And so we really want to see treatments move forward, like you say, since the 1970s.

There haven't been very many new treatments in psychiatry. In other fields of medicine, there's been many iterations of new medications. And in psychiatry, there's been very few new treatments, and developments in this area. So before, using metabolic, therapies and ketogenic diet, my life was, very chaotic because I had severe periods of depression. And I think when people hear depression, they think you feel sad or, you know, your your emotions are down.

But but really, it's like a physical state of physiological crisis in the body, these states of depression and bipolar disorder. You're really your energy is so suppressed that you can't move, you can't think, you can't feel. It feels like you're just constantly deprived of oxygen and you're just really trying to catch your breath. And and that's a much more accurate description of what bipolar depression feels like than kinda feeling sad. So I experienced those states.

And then on the other side, I experienced hypomanic states where you get these kind of periods of creativity and productivity. Mania becomes dysfunctional where you you have to go to hospital. But in hypomania, some people can function for periods of time. So I I really my battle was to try and find a way to live a life where I could be severely depressed, but then have these periods of productivity and creativity for for short periods. And there was really nothing that I could do.

I struggled with many aspects of life to fit in this way because it was so unusual, this dynamic. But I did find, long before as an academic, that I could write music because I had these periods of creativity and focus. And as long as I created good music during those times, that could carry me through the rest of the year. So when I was 21, I was signed as a music producer to Universal Music and I worked for a time as a for a film composer called Harry Gregson Williams.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Iain Campbell
And he wrote the recent Gladiator two score. And so I I used music was the only way that I could survive at the time because I I was able to use this creativity. And when I was depressed, I would disappear for, you know, months at a time and be unproductive. And so it was a very difficult life. And the thing that eventually it came to was I was working as the assistant to this composer and I would reach periods of severe depression.

It was I believe my life was fantastic. I had a wonderful job. I had opportunities and I enjoyed working. But I I I still, completely unrelated to my scenarios, we'd go through these suicidal depressions. And at one point, I reached a kind of a low point where I really was not able to function and I was I had kind of catatonic depression where I couldn't leave the house for almost two months.

And my wife became very concerned about this because I'm normally able to manage things to a certain degree. And, you know, the hardest thing with bipolar and psychiatric conditions is you feel some part of you that is, you want to contribute to the world, you want to be there for your family, you want to make something of your life, but something about your physiology doesn't allow you to do that. And it's a great conflict for people with psychiatric conditions because the guilt and the sort of shame that comes with that and not being able to function and contribute in the way you want to can drive people to suicidal ideation. This is what I experienced because I felt like I can't be a good husband to my wife. I can't be a father to I want to have children.

I'm not good enough to be a father to these children. So I started to have, for the first time, suicidal ideation. And this is what drove me to try and really understand my condition because I felt there's something not true about what I'm being told about this. I'm told that it's a neurotransmitter, a chemical imbalance.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And you were taking medications and they didn't work.

Iain Campbell
Yes. I I yes. Took the the problem for me was that I was told this is a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's a neurotransmitter imbalance. I even wrote music about this.

This was one of the main main topics I wrote music about. Because I was trying to understand what this illness was and I really had an existential crisis because I couldn't live my life the way I wanted to. And I really went into these deep depressions and turned to philosophy or religion or spirituality to try and find some explanation for why would someone experience life like this. And ultimately, I didn't think the answer would be in science or biology, thought it would be in philosophy or, some of these areas. But but really the answer me has come through scientific understanding.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So I I wonder, like, what happened when you started a ketogenic diet? How did you come upon this and how did you end up using that? And what happened to you when you did in terms of your own life? I I really kind

Iain Campbell
of hit a wall with illness where I I kind of recognised, and and this is unfortunately the experience of many people. I lost a member of my family to psychiatric illness and

Dr. Mark Hyman
Suicide?

Iain Campbell
Yes. Yeah. And my, mother had a severe neurological condition for about, ten years and I could see how devastating brain disorders can be for people. My mother had a brain aneurysm and for about ten years was completely a different person to the person I'd grown up and known during my life. And it made me question, you know, what is the brain and who are we as people?

If if your brain can change like that and it changes who you are as a person, what does this mean about who we are? Are we just a bunch of chemicals that, you know, if they're disrupted, you become a different person? It doesn't feel like that. It feels like there's something more to so these were the questions I was engaging with. And I recognized that my own brain was not working enough to live a reasonable quality of life, and I'd seen the the endpoint of the tragedy that happens when people can't function like that.

But but people don't appreciate, I think, that it's really not a choice for people. It's like the the level of suffering becomes so much that this becomes something they start to think about. So I I really decided I'm gonna try everything possible to survive this, mainly for my wife. My father and my mother were very, supportive and helpful to me during this time, and I wanted to do everything I could. It wasn't even really for my own life anymore.

It was I I kind of recognized that I didn't have a life anymore. But I I did think I I don't want this to be a tragic situation for anyone else. So I I made this, like, document and I put in I just started listing. I started reading everything. I read every book that I could find about the brain, about mental health, about, physical health.

And I started listing all the interventions. I was listing all the supplements you had in Ultramy. I was listing I was listing, you know, was going through every bit you could think of about mental health and and listing everything that could be done. And then I kinda ranked them by what I thought was most likely to be helpful. And I thought it would certainly be helpful to lose weight and I was very overweight at the time and I thought that this would probably be somewhere to start.

At least I can do that and at least it seems possible. So I I started reading about, like, how does one lose weight and I read about the new this at the time, it was sort of like the new Atkins diet. It was like a kind of but I didn't realize it was a kind of form of ketogenic diet. Yeah. But it was essentially that's what it is.

Yeah. And so I I just read online that people were losing weight. Wanted to try some something. So I did this, and I remember sitting on the bus for the first time in many decades. My thinking became clear.

It felt like the lights in my brain were kinda clicking back on. This is something that Mary Newport has described with her husband with Alzheimer's, like, there was a kind of energy returning. And I felt like I'm thinking clearly about my life for the first time. I'm not depressed. I'm not manic.

And I also I'm appreciating things that I couldn't see before. I looked out the window and I saw a tree in the sun and I felt this experience of happiness. And I thought, this is what most people feel like when they look at nature. They see nature and they feel this sense of calm and peace and enjoyment. And I'd never known I hadn't experienced that in such a long time that it was foreign to me.

And I I didn't know what was happening. I didn't have any idea at the time the diet was having any influence on this. I just knew that I was feeling well. So my my father was a medical professor and I I called him and I said, this happened a number of times. And I said, I don't know what's happening, but I'm becoming well.

Like, for periods of time, I'm having wellness and I don't understand why that's happening. And so he said, well, what's different? Like, what are you and we worked through lots of things and I thought I said, well, I'm doing this diet and I'm losing some weight and maybe there's something happening here with the diet change. And so, you know, was quite unfortunately quite ignorant of these things at the time to not know that it could have such an effect. But, I eventually realized that this is a form of a kinda ketogenic diet, not a full ketogenic diet, but I was entering periods of ketosis Yeah.

And I I started to measure it. So I got a blood ketone meter and I started measuring, sort of almost daily my blood ketones. And I realized that the times I was experiencing this kind of remission of symptoms were where my ketone levels were higher. And this really, changed my entire life because I I thought, for the first time, there's something I can do. There's something that is making a difference to my symptoms.

Incredible.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So Were you able to get off medication at that point?

Iain Campbell
So I I currently don't take medication, for my condition, but that was a long journey for me to Yeah. Want us to be extremely careful with coming off psychiatric medication. Mhmm. It's, you know, these your body becomes, co adapted to these molecules that you're giving it. And so it's so coming off medication is usually a very slow tapering with a psychiatrist, very closely working with a psychiatrist.

And I think that's the best way if if you are, you know, considering this. But for me, it was a very long journey. And like you say, between psychiatry and neurology, because, you know, Kripplin wanted to understand this biological basis. Freud felt it was about psychoanalysis. And there was this great rift then between psychiatry and neurology.

Jean Martin Charcot was one of the early psychiatrists who focused on he, and a lot of people don't know this, I'll come back to Charcot, but to mention about Freud, he he trained as a neurologist. He trained to study neurology and the operation of the brain and how it works. And he became disillusioned because he felt like we can't understand it through this methodology. So he went into psychoanalysis, but he was originally a neurologist. Mhmm.

And that was really, Ironic. Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Mark Hyman
He took us down a path for a hundred years that turned out to be quite flawed.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. Absolutely. And then Young got really interesting, his student Carl Jung. But yeah, it was it was bizarre because it split off the brain and the body in a way. This kind of biological basis and this kind of psychoanalytic approach.

But, yeah, this this really has echoed down through the ages because in our universities, we have separate departments for physical and mental health. We have psychiatry as a completely isolated discipline, it doesn't have a lot of interaction with the other physical sciences. And I think that's been detrimental for mental health treatment, because we've fell into these kind of paradigms of viewing this chemical imbalance and so forth instead of viewing the whole body in a holistic sense. So I mean, you mentioned Ultramind Solution, and I read that back in 02/2016. And this was actually during the time I was living in a Fifth Floor flat in Edinburgh, and I was really struggling with suicidal ideation at the time, and you don't wanna be living in a high flat during such times.

But I just started reading everything that I could on this topic, and I read The Ultramined Solution. And the thing that struck me in it was the chapter on energy and metabolism.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Iain Campbell
And at the time, I wasn't doing a ketogenic diet. I wasn't aware of metabolic psychiatry at all. But it but it struck me this thing that you said about mitochondrial function and bipolar disorder.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Iain Campbell
You you linked to this paper by Kato. So I started really looking into this and I I felt like this makes sense to me. Like, it feels like an energy disorder. It feels like I have bursts of huge amounts of energy and then I can't function for it. And and it feels much more like an energy disorder than a neurotransmitter imbalance.

So that really spoke to me. This was obviously ahead of its time.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I buy into that.

Iain Campbell
Still it's still

Dr. Mark Hyman
I think ahead of its time.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. Absolutely. Unfortunately. Well, you said 2009 it was published. Yeah.

So that's I read it in 02/2016, so I was catching up. Because

Dr. Mark Hyman
I wrote it in 02/2007.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. But but it is it is remarkable what you described in that book because it's now becoming a major research focus in like mainstream universities, if only we'd listened to it earlier.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh, that's powerful. And and when you took the medications that they prescribed for you, it sounds like they they didn't really do much for you. So it is You were still having suicidal ideation, you were still depressed, you were still on a hypomanic or manic episode.

Iain Campbell
I think medications can be lifesaving for people in acute scenarios. When you go into hospital and you're acutely manic, then these do save people's lives in those scenarios. You know, the trials we do on medication last a very short period of time compared to the length of time that patients take them for. And the long term physical effects of some of these can be quite devastating for people's cardiometabolic health. So many of the mainstream medications for bipolar directly lead to metabolic dysfunction.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right. Kind of ironic. Like, treat drugs that treat, like, bipolar, schizophrenia are often antipsychotic drugs which cause you to overeat and get Yes. To be diabetic or Yes. Insulin resistant, which is what's causing the brain dysfunction Yes.

In the first place. So you're actually piling, you know, disaster upon disaster. Yes.

Iain Campbell
And it is tragic for patients because you see these young people in high school that will go on, these medications and put on sort of 30 or 40 pounds and at that age it is devastating for your self esteem and it leads down to a trajectory where this is not being managed. It's not really the responsibility of a psychiatrist to manage physical health and it's not really the responsibility of the GP or the that's what we call it in The UK but the primary care to manage the physical health of someone having these side effects. So it's in this middle place where nobody's really managing the side effects of these psychiatric medications. And so we're exploring kind of adjunctive and different ways of helping people to to manage these.

Dr. Mark Hyman
What was it like for you to then read about mitochondrial dysfunction and then for the first time ended up researching it? You know, that exact thing years later, what you're doing now.

Iain Campbell
When I was reading it, and I I do believe it was the first time that I'd heard about this when I was reading Ultramind because this was long before I knew about ketosis, ketogenic diets, metabolic psychiatry. But I read the paper you linked by Kato describing these kind of mitochondrial dynamics in bipolar, and I thought this makes sense. This doesn't feel like just a chemical imbalance. It feels like your energy is so profoundly depressed and then elevated. So it spoke to me as a patient on that level.

That's why metabolic psychiatry is getting such momentum because patients recognize there's something more about our condition that we don't yet understand and and this is something that speaks to our experience.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I think it's so important and I think that, you know, you you sort of mentioned this paper I linked to. I don't really remember the paper but I do remember is that, you know, I was diagnosing people based on doing deep biomarker testing.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So I was looking for things that other doctors don't look for. Was looking at their genetics, their genetic variations and Yes. Neurotransmitter metabolism or methylation or detoxification I or other was looking at their mitochondria and their function through organic acid testing, is not something that's typically done I in traditional was looking at amino acids, I was looking at nutritional status, at toxin levels. And so I I would Actually I wrote the book very quickly and then I was like, Oh, I better go check and see if there's references that support what I'm saying because I'm just writing down what I've observed and I don't know if I'm just making this shit up or if there's something there.

Iain Campbell
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And I basically did it in a weird way. Basically backfilled the book with the scientific literature that validated the things that I was observing clinically. And in fact, Dale Bredesen, who's sort of helped develop the field of Alzheimer's treatment using the same approach, had the same experience reading the book around Alzheimer's. Said, well, you're talking about Alzheimer's reversal using all these concepts that I actually was studying in the laboratory

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But I didn't know they could be applied clinically. Take us now to to where we are now and and and how you kind of entered this field of metabolic psychiatry. What is metabolic psychiatry? What does that mean? Why does it matter more in-depth than ever before?

Iain Campbell
So metabolic psychiatry is, essentially a proposal that, that I know you've recognized for a long time, but that that there's an energy disruption, a metabolic disruption that underlies, psychiatric conditions. And this metabolic disruption, this energy disruption affects the brain. And for many people, like, we've described, they've been told this is a chemical imbalance, a neurotransmitter imbalance. But one one of the ways I think about this when you hear this as a patient is is like if you imagine you were driving down the highway and the car is filling up with smoke. There's clearly an emergency happening.

But the way you address that is not necessarily to change the air conditioning, you know. You wanna look for like what is causing this to happen more fundamentally. And the neurotransmitter explanation feels as a patient and, someone living with the condition to many of us, like, you know, we're trying to adjust the air conditioning when there's something much more fundamentally wrong with our engine system. But if you address the the fundamental disruption, which is the engine is on fire, you know, your metabolism is not working, the energy production is not working. It fixes all the downstream problems.

You don't have to mix with the air conditioning. You don't have to worry about smoke. You don't have to Yeah. You know, all the things that can go wrong can stem from this like more fundamental disruption. And so this is what people such as yourself, Chris Palmer, are proposing this kind of energy disruption is the root cause of mental illness.

And I think this really resonates with the patient community because it feels much closer to what we're experiencing, fixing this kind of engine versus trying to adjust, you know, very specific aspects of neurotransmission and so forth.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So basically, it's a metabolic problem. It's sort of like diabetes in the brain in a sense. Like it's a it's a And the brain is the source of, you know, so many mitochondria. It's got more mitochondria per cell than any other organ in the body. And mitochondria are the little Yes.

Energy factories in your cells that take oxygen and food and combust them to turn into ATP or energy.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And if there's an energy crisis because you can't make it because there's basically bad energy Yes. You're gonna have a whole set of downstream symptoms and problems as a And result of and for some people it might manifest as diabetes. For some people it manifests as schizophrenia or bipolar disease or as Alzheimer's which they call type three diabetes. So it's the same fundamental problem of insulin resistance and insulin signaling and glucose metabolism that's disrupted that is, you know, can be caused by many factors. Yes.

But you're basically talking about going upstream and dealing with the root causes Yes. Of the problem.

Iain Campbell
Instant signaling is a particularly interesting example because I think some of the ways we're trying to treat mental health conditions at the moment are kind of, obtusely or bluntly addressing these pathways but they're not giving a full, holistic benefit to the metabolic problem that's underlying the condition. So I have a paper in Nature Journal Translational Psychiatry called Lithium and Insulin Signalling. Yeah. And I and I point out in this paper that that many of the major targets of lithium are part of the insulin signaling network.

Dr. Mark Hyman
By the way, lithium is the drug that's used to treat Yes. Often bipolar disease.

Iain Campbell
You know, the PI cycle, GSK three, AKT, mTOR, these are all parts of the insulin signaling network.

Dr. Mark Hyman
For for those in English, those are the biochemical pathways that relate to your blood sugar and insulin control that that we have many redundancies in, and and there are many of those pathways that get interrupted by problems with energy metabolism.

Iain Campbell
Since proposing this, there's been quite a number of studies on it. There was a study in Lancet Journal in neurobiology where Martin Aldo, who developed the Aldo scale for lithium, for example, and a team investigated this in was they make these kinda organoids, they're like mini brains they derive from neurons from bipolar patients. And they found that lithium was modulating this insulin signaling pathway. But think the kind of what we might be starting to discover is that we're kind of obtusely or like I say bluntly addressing some of these metabolic pathways through various forms of treatment. For example, like suppressing metabolism so heavily that someone can't go manic, but they also put on 40 or 50 pounds of weight and have diabetes.

You know, so it's like you're stopping the the acute mania, which can save someone's life in hospital. But in the long run, there there's this metabolic, damage and dysfunction that can happen. And there's other medications like lithium which I think address aspects of insulin signalling that can be, in the short term, helpful for someone but in the long term can lead to damage, that leads to, you know, diabetes and so forth.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Low rate function and other things, yeah.

Iain Campbell
So I think looking for better metabolic treatments is a really important area for psychiatry.

Dr. Mark Hyman
We're kinda entering this new year of psychiatry. And sadly it's not getting to patients who need it most. Before we kind of dive into the biology, I want to really get into the biology of what's happening in the genetics and the diagnostic tools, the blood biomarkers, metabolomics, functional MRI imaging, imaging, you know. The thing about psychiatrists never do brain imaging, it's kind of crazy when you think about it. It's like But

Iain Campbell
It's like you wanna well you don't wanna look under the hood and see what's happening.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Someone once said that modern medicine is is like trying to diagnose what's wrong with your car by listening to the noises it makes, you know, instead of lifting up the hood and looking underneath the hood. But you know, be before we we get into that, I want to sort of touch on, I think something that's really quite important, which is the the field of psychiatry has has classically been about this diagnostic manual called DSM five, which means the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual version five. Yes. Because there's been one, two, three, four, five. Yes.

And and the latest version and it basically is descriptive. Yes. It just it's a phenomenological description of these symptoms, and if you you fall into this category of these collective symptoms, get this diagnosis. You get ADHD, you get bipolar disease and there's subcategories. Schizophrenia, depression, different kinds of depression.

It's very, very detailed. And it's like, probably like detailed about which type of each mental health system can get different kinds of anxiety disorders, different kinds of bipolar, different it's like Yeah. And it's fundamentally really flawed because, to kind of get back to your earlier point, there's fundamental underlying biological mechanisms that are causing people to suffer with these problems. Yes. And unless we take seriously this fact and take seriously the research that we need to under undertake to actually investigate these things, we're never gonna help address one of the biggest causes of suffering globally.

I mean, yes, the obesity, diabetes and heart disease, cancer are are really the big killers. Yes. But when you look at them, they're also metabolic problems. And when you look at the the amount of quality of life lost, call it the, you know, quality adjusted life years or qualities. Yes.

Basically, how many years have you lost to suffering, which you lost many years to suffering. When you take that number, you know, and psychiatric illness far exceeds everything else. Yes. And and so this is like a global crisis and and I don't see really except at the margins a lot of work being done around this. You mentioned the Brzezinski Group, which is a group of of of that sort of helped fund a lot of this work.

Only because of luck did someone who was very wealthy have a kid who was bipolar, who went keto, who got better, who said, what's going on here? Let me start throwing millions and millions of dollars at funding this research. Because it's not happening from the academic medical centers really much. It's not happening from NIH very much. It's like maybe a little here and there and it's starting to change.

But I think I think we have this really fundamental diagnostic flaw. And I think what's really exciting to me is that it's not just me and my little clinic treating patients seeing these things, it's now academic scientists starting to kind of dig in and see these problems. So what what are the kind of novel and emerging diagnostic tools that we are using to start to map out what, is going on with these people? And and by the way, the whole idea that there's like one cause of depression or one cause of Yes. Bipolar disease or one cause of schizophrenia or one cause of autism or whatever it is

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Kinda misses the fact that we're all unique and different Yes. And that different people have different combinations of things that need to be treated. So Yes. While they have some common themes Yes. You you need to sort of look at the, you know, under underlying individuality of each person

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And begin to understand how to unravel that accordion knot.

Iain Campbell
So I I mean I can answer it from a researcher perspective and a patient perspective. As you mentioned, the Bizicki family who are funding metabolic psychiatry research and Matt Bizicki, their son, received a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. And he had really incredibly severe symptoms. He was hospitalised many times, went through and their family really went through many treatments, like over 30 treatments, having full access to The US healthcare system. And even being able to try every treatment available, nothing was helping his symptoms, even as people who had ability to do that.

So you can imagine what it's like for homeless people, for example. People that you know, it's very difficult for people, even if you can try everything, to have any effective treatment in treatment resistant patients. And eventually he, went on a ketogenic diet with, Chris Palmer, a Denise Potter dietitian, and experienced remission of his symptoms. And in a kind of parallel journey, my father and I were researching this and trying to understand how do we get research to happen to address this. And we we kind of

Dr. Mark Hyman
And your father's a researcher as well.

Iain Campbell
Yes. He worked in developing countries doing global health research throughout his career. And he's always been interested in he's been a he basically saved my life by helping me through bipolar disorder throughout my life. He's a really remarkable person. And so we really were trying from the research side to understand this, and Matt and his family from the patient side were trying to understand this.

And it was very hard to get any funding to understand or research this. I I I had to work at a day job for many years to support my research. I I was turned down for every fellowship, every grant, every possible way of doing this, and I was publishing papers, but there was no interest in it. And so eventually, I met Jan and Matt Pizicki because I put up a one of the few things I could do at time was put up a YouTube video of a I put up this forty five minute YouTube video describing some of the things you're describing about the frustration with diagnosis. I think what we both recognised from either side was that we've been given this label that's bipolar disorder, but underlying that is a biological condition that is running that we don't fully understand and the explanations we're being given aren't the map is not matching the territory.

Yeah. We're trying to describe this complex biology. Yeah. But the maps we're being given for that don't fit the territory accurately. And so this was the genesis of this research was from the patient side, from research side.

Jan Buzicki and Dave Buzicki funded our pilot study at Edinburgh. And this was after about six years of trying to find support for this. And and this really was how the field started, through the support of the Buzicki's investment because of their son's journey. And so I I really, find that remarkable how much they've, got sort of in the trenches with patients and said, we're gonna make this happen. We're gonna find out what's going on here.

And that is an incredibly fortunate thing to have in the world because there's not a lot of mainstream support for these ideas. But it really came from just reaching a peak of suffering, both their family journey, our research journey, my family, and many others across the world, Shibani Sethi, Chris Palmer that have been working in this field for a long time, George Eid, treating patients, and everyone sort of realizing we have to fix this. This can't continue. So I I totally agree the map is not matching the territory and this

Dr. Mark Hyman
is Yeah.

Iain Campbell
We're all trying to to reconfigure this.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Don't know you just came up with that, but that was something my professor mentor, Doctor. Sydney Baker, taught us, which is that we're given the wrong map for the territory of illness we're in. Yes. Yeah.

You know, and that's something I often talk about with functional medicine is a different

Iain Campbell
map. Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So how do you if you're given a map for, you know, London and you're in New Delhi, it's not gonna help you. Yes. Yes. You know? And I think that's what we have in medicine.

We have the wrong map. And across all of all of the chronic health diseases, not just psychiatric illness. And all these diseases have chronic chronic suffering that humanity's got right now which is globally just so incredible. And it's in the last hundred and fifty years that we've really begun to see the explosion of these chronic illnesses.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, we now begin to finally understand them. And it seems to me like a new kind of golden era of of, medicine and also particularly psychiatry. You know, I want to sort of get into the weeds a little bit because I think, you know, as people listening often say, know, just because you know the name of your disease, it doesn't mean you know what's wrong with you. Because you can say, well, have bipolar, I have depression, like what is unique to you? How do we sort of start to think differently about diagnosing people and using our existing tools which we didn't even have necessarily, you know, fifty years ago like we decode our whole genome.

What does that tell us about our mental health issues? And so I think we we have this moment where we can start to interrogate people's biology in ways we never had the capacity We can do your whole genome, we can see all your 20,000 genes, we can see your five to 7,000,000 variations in that genetic code. Can look at your metabolome which is thousands and tens of thousands of metabolites. We can look at blood biomarkers. We can look at your microbiome, which plays a big role in mental health.

You can look at your, entire profile of of, MRI imaging, which is basically allowing us to look at functional capacity, just structurally do you have a tumor but like Yes. What's your brain doing in in a functional way and what does that tell us about what's happening energetically in the brain. Yes. You know, Suzanne Go from Harvard Oxford trained physician, pediatric neurologist, who's done a lot of work on autism and also found it to be a mitochondrial energy deficit. And treated those kids with mitochondrial therapies and then they work.

Iain Campbell
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, so I guess the question I have for you, Ian, is is before we dive into the details of the of the the biology is, people say, I don't have bipolar disorder, I have anxiety, or I have depression, or I have, you you name it, OCD. Do these share common things? I mean, is it is this apply also to those from your perspective?

Iain Campbell
I think bipolar disorder is an extreme version, you know, it's in one-two percent of the population. But I think it indicates an underlying dynamic that's present in many people. And perhaps by understanding the extreme case, could be helpful to people who are experiencing, lesser symptoms, you know, seasonal affective disorder, depression, anxiety. Bipolar has very severe swings to mania and depression. But I think these happen in a lower level in a different way in many different types of people.

I I could share some of the history of the the biomarkers and the ways people have conceptualized bipolar and and then bring it round to how this might apply to other people. If you look before the age of psychopharmacology, there was this psychiatrist called Emil Kripplin in 1921. He published a paper called Manic Depressive Insanity and he was considered the founder of modern psychiatry. And all he did was observe his patients very closely and try to understand really what is their condition by asking what are they really experiencing. And this was long before we conceptualised this as neurotransmitters and different types of treatment.

He was really just looking at what patients were experiencing, which is my interest as patient as well. And he noted kind of three core features that were particularly notable about, bipolar disorder. And again, think these relate to many conditions. And he said there's a metabolic disturbance. He said all my observations indicate that in manic depressive insanity patients, metabolic disorders must take place.

And then he noticed this

Dr. Mark Hyman
And what do you mean by metabolic disorder?

Iain Campbell
So he would track their body weight and he would track lots of different metabolic measures that were available at the time. And you can see in this manuscript in 1921, he's drawing diagrams, really detailed diagrams of body weight and how it changes with mood and symptoms. And so he said there's something metabolic about this illness. And then the second thing he said was that there's circadian and sleep disruption and he said that the, the most striking disorders in A Manic Depresses of Insanity are the disorders of sleep and general nourishment. And then the third thing he pointed out was that there was seasonal variation of symptoms.

So he said he describes it kind of poetically, he said 'in many of my patients I saw Munina set in in the autumn and Passover in the spring when the sap shoots in the trees.' And he was describing that there's a seasonal variation to this condition and seasonal affective disorder and many other conditions, schizophrenia and so forth, have this kind of seasonal variation. And so he was taking these as three core aspects of bipolar disorder And then from there, the reason I think this is interesting is because the seasonal variation of symptoms in bipolar is a seasonal variation energy. So if you speak to bipolar patients in the spring, they have this huge surge of energy and activity. They want to move, they want to go out, they want to exercise, start new projects. This kind of mania really comes on strongly in the spring.

But it also occurs in the autumn, and this is because the the photoperiod, the length of daylight changes very rapidly at these times. It's called the equinox, the spring equinox, the autumn equinox. And if you look at systematic review of when mania occurs in patients by hospitalizations, it occurs at the spring equinox, at the autumn equinox. And conversely, depression happens in the winter. So the the same systematic review highlights winter depression and it occurs around the weeks of the winter solstice when photoperiod is at its lowest.

So what we're kinda seeing is a male kripplin was describing this seasonal variation of energy and metabolism related to circadian function. And if you look at, you know, the natural world, this is a part of the natural world. Humans for 95% of our time on earth were living in a natural daylight cycle seasonal variation and it was essential for survival to be able to allocate your energy optimally. So in the spring when there was opportunities for hunting, reproduction, so forth, it would make sense to have a surge of energy. And in the winter, it made sense to conserve energy because there's not the same opportunities available.

There's extreme examples in the natural

Dr. Mark Hyman
amount of food.

Iain Campbell
Right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so the extreme examples in the natural world are hibernation torpor in the winter and, you know, migration, hypermetabolic behaviors in the spring.

But these mechanisms, the circadian and metabolic mechanisms that do this energy modulation throughout the seasons are conserved in humans. I have a paper about this called Metabolic Plasticity. And I think that this is a metabolic energy and circadian regulation disorder. And I think that what it is the underlying mechanisms, circadian and metabolic mechanisms, are sort of ancient preserved, mechanisms of seasonal adaptation and metabolism. And so I think that I know you've talked about this yourself, these kind of like ancient survival mechanisms.

They become dysregulated in our modern environment. A kind of mechanism that could give you optimal energy use throughout the year could be completely dysregulated by artificial light conditions, metabolic factors, diet and so forth. I think that, you know, we're talking about insulin signaling and in the winter, many species suppress their insulin signaling and glucose metabolism. They go into metabolic depression.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Suppress Like bears, they hibernate. Yeah. They gain all their weight in the fall and then they Yes. Live off the fat in the winter,

Iain Campbell
right? Yeah. And they they do two things. They suppress their circadian rhythm and they suppress their metabolism. And this is what happens in bipolar depression.

Your circadian rhythm's suppressed, your metabolism's depressed. Obviously, this is just analogy. It's not a direct comparison. But the same mechanisms underlying these seasonal adaptations are conserved in humans. MTOR, AMPK, sirtuins, AKT, the insulin signaling network.

There may be an evolutionary mismatch we're experiencing in some of these conditions where we have these ancient survival mechanisms that our modern world is heavily dysregulating.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, the light bulb in the advent of refined sugars and starches led to a big host of chronic disease problems including mental health.

Iain Campbell
A really great example I could share is, so I mentioned Matt Bazooki and we have a podcast where we interview patients about their symptoms. And many people have described to us including himself that this mania occurs around the time of the changing photoperiod, changing length of daylight at the spring equinox. And it's really notable, you know, it's it's at the spring equinox, manic patients become hypermetabolic. They're going out trying to start new things, exercise and so forth. And there's a really interesting analogy in the natural world called a zagunru, which is I think that Johan Andreas Neumann noted.

In animals in captivity, many, particularly migratory birds, for example, around the spring equinox become hypermetabolic. They start trying to bang their head off the side of the cage. They're they're staying up all night. Their circadian rhythm is suppressed. They're having insomnia.

They're trying to they're getting this deep evolutionary impulse and drive that they can't express in the unnatural environment, and it's to migrate at the spring, equinox. Happens also at the autumn equinox, this behavior. So I I think these are just analogies from the natural world, of course they're not directly related. But I think there's clear evolutionary mechanisms, circadian and metabolic mechanisms that are active in some in bipolar and across some of these psychiatric conditions, that we need to explore.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Historically, mental illness has really been about philosophy and religion Yes. And, you know, just psychological explanations, which don't actually fit the current understanding of mental health issues.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. And I think what you're saying about these philosophical assumptions about mental health, they really inform the treatment of patients and how they experience the condition. So, you know, this kind of Cartesian idea that the body and the brain are separate has really informed a lot of psychiatric practice. Amel Kreplin, who was considered the founder of modern psychiatry, in 1921, he wrote books describing this biological basis of mental illness. But he there was a kind of split in psychiatry where Amel Krepman was looking for what you're describing this biological basis, biomarkers.

But then other people, like Freud, were saying, no, it's to do with psychoanalysis, like you say, and, you know, issues with your mother and so forth.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You're just laying on the couch for five days a week for twenty years and you might feel better. Yes. You might feel better. Yes. Now you're sort of getting into the biology a little bit and so you get through the history of how we sort of began to observe these phenomena, but they were kind of neglected.

It was thought to be sort of psyche psychological in nature or maybe it was a chemical imbalance. I mean the chemical imbalance idea wasn't exactly wrong. It is it is biochemical but it's just they were looking at the wrong thing. Was like serotonin and it's dopamine, it's this and that. Yeah.

And I think, you know, the genetics are really interesting around this and there's actually whole, you know, genetic profiles we do in our clinic at the Ultra Walnut Center look at the risk factors for psychiatric disease. Can you talk about some of those genetics?

Iain Campbell
Bipolar disorder and many psychiatric conditions are quite polygenic, which means that there's not any kind of core gene that can be absolutely identified to cause this condition, like with rare genetic disorders. But there are a combination of genes that contribute to the condition. And I I think where it gets interesting is the gene environment interaction. You know, may maybe there's an evolutionary many people have hypothesized there's an evolutionary purpose for things like bipolar. It stays at one or two percent in the population consistently.

Why would this be conserved in humans? Why wouldn't it be selected out of the the gene pool? And many people have said that maybe there was some adaptive advantage to this back in our evolutionary history when we're living in natural daylight seasonal cycles. And to have this ability to upregulate your energy so much at times of opportunity and to heavily suppress it to conserve energy at times of disadvantage would have been a beneficial survival trait.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Mhmm.

Iain Campbell
And so I I think that this you know, there might be evolutionary perspectives that can explain this genetic preservation of bipolar. But it's not one gene, it's it's a combination

Dr. Mark Hyman
Many many combinations of genes. Yeah. I mean, when you look at the literature, there's some interesting genes that affect mental health like methylation genes, which involve how we kind of transfer carbon and three hydrogen chemical group Yes. Called methyl group, which is basically the currency of our biology. It's it's in everything from neurotransmitter Yes.

Formation to energy production to detoxification and to regulating oxidative stress and inflammation. Mean Yes. And what's really interesting that's unifying a lot of these mental health issues and chronic disease in general is inflammation. And so what what happens is the brain gets inflamed and it gets inflamed because it can handle the load of the stress from our diet in terms of processed refined carbs and sugars. It can handle the environmental toxins that

Iain Campbell
we're

Dr. Mark Hyman
It exposed can handle the various kinds of stressors. And so we we kind of break down. And there's, you know, and like genes like MTHFR and COMT that you Now can they can tell you what's going on. There's genes that relate to serotonin metabolism to even to circadian rhythms and clocks and and how those relate to mood disorders. So I think those are really interesting.

And there's like a lot of good stuff. I don't if you want to say something about the genetics.

Iain Campbell
Well, I I wanted to ask you which circadian genes have been noted that that you're interested in.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's something called clock genes and, ART, ARNTL or ARNTL genes. These are genes that just affect circadian rhythm. They affect

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, our our biology in ways that affect mood disruption if their circadian rhythm is disrupted.

Iain Campbell
So That's really interesting. Because the the half of my research is on well, the majority of my research is on metabolic psychiatry, but we also have a lot of chrono psychiatry research led by Professor Daniel Smith in our Edinburgh. And the central focus of chronopsychiatry research is the things you're mentioning, clock, bMAL1, percry. And these are your circadian regulators, they basically take signals from the environment, the light, and they convert this in the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the brain, which is kind of like a clock system in the brain, and they use that to regulate your metabolism. So this happens daily when you go to sleep.

These clock genes tell your body it's time to to down regulate metabolism and go to sleep. But it also happens seasonally. These clock genes tell your body about the changing light conditions, the changing length of daylight, and they then feed into your metabolic system to tell you whether to have more or less energy to kind of conserve and, utilize energy accordingly. So I I think these make sense in terms of an energy metabolic disorder, these clock genes that you mentioned, clocked,

Dr. Mark Hyman
And there's also blood biomarkers. You know, I'm curious what kinds of things you're looking at in your research and and what you've seen in literature around things that people can measure in their not metabolomics, but just like common blood biomarkers that affect mental health.

Iain Campbell
You know, on the circadian side, it's clear these, clock mechanisms feed into bipolar. And on the metabolic side, we use sort of metabolomics to try and understand this. We use this in our pilot study, which I can talk more about in a minute. But we use metabolomics to try and understand what are the differences between a bipolar person and a normal person in terms of their metabolic function. And the things that we see again are these kind of insulin signaling type mechanisms, the phosphatidylinositol cycle, AKT, mTOR.

And these are the kind of differences in bipolar patients in these metabolic signaling networks. And again, they're kind of related to energy allocation and conservation. Yeah. And I think that so in our pilot study of a ketogenic diet, one of the ones we were particularly interested in was lactate. In psychiatric wards throughout the 1970s.

Psychiatrists were noting that bipolar patients were having elevated lactate. I was just at a symposium essay in Toronto with Anne Andreesia who studies mitochondrial function, and she's been looking at lactate as a marker of mental health symptoms. And it's a it's a marker of mitochondrial dysfunction, essentially. When the mitochondria aren't producing energy efficiently, they have this kind of, you know, this output. I think you described it in one of your breaks as like maybe like an exhaust fume or something.

This kind of byproducts of metabolism.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, mean, think about it. When you have lactic acid build up in your muscles from exercising and you feel that Yes. Soreness and the cramping, in your brain you don't have pain but you have mental illness.

Iain Campbell
Yes. That's what it feels like. It feels like exhaustion. It feels like you've been running in a marathon and you're just paused in that state continually. Yeah.

Yeah. That that's what I was trying to describe When I was trying to describe this kind of physiological crisis, It feels like exhaustion. It feels like when you're running a marathon but being paused in that state of exhaustion indefinitely. And and and lactate is a kind of marker that makes sense in that context.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, those are sort of metabolomic biomarkers. But you know this, I wanna sort of talk about some of the other things metabolically that you can look at that have been linked to like Yes. Amino acids that you can measure, short chain fatty acids that come from the microbiome that Yes. Modulate inflammation. There are also organic acids that we measure in functional medicine we've been doing for decades

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Which measure various metabolites like kinetic acid and quinolinic acid which

Iain Campbell
Yes, the

Dr. Mark Hyman
are metabolites of, you know, serotonin metabolites and they they're neurotoxic. And so they're often linked to inflammation. So when I see a patient with a high level of this and I would see really high levels of these in autistic patients or psychiatric patients, I'm like, wow. And it would just tell me that there was, inflammation in the brain that was causing an interruption in the normal production of neurotransmitters.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And that's been linked to depression, schizophrenia, to autism. Yes. Lactate, you mentioned, and pyruvate, which are energy metabolic dysfunction, see those in bipolar disorder, carnitine, which has to do with the production of, and burning of fat, which is often impaired. You see this in autism and schizophrenia, oxidative stress, and often these I'm coming back to these autistic kids, like any, anybody with severe psychiatric illness, whether it was schizophrenia or bipolar disease that I saw, and I saw these patients in my practice, even though I wasn't a psychiatrist because they were desperate looking for something. And, and you know, they have, you know, glutathione depletion, oxidative stress markers, markers of microbial metabolism.

I would see often, in people with really significant psychiatric illness and OCD or kids with behavioral disorders, really Yeah. High, high, high levels Yeah. Of metabolites from bad bugs in their guts, in their blood or in their urine. And so these are kinds of things you can start to look at. They're not typically part of what you're regularly can get at your doctor's office.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But it will be soon and this is the whole field of metabolomics. Yes. Looking to sum total of all the metabolites in your blood. There's, you know, maybe you get your doctor annual visit, you get 19 blood tests. We're talking about thousands and thousands, six, ten thousand blood blood blood biomarkers that you can check.

Iain Campbell
I I went on a long journey with this because I was trying to understand, is there anything, you know, I mentioned making this document and having like everything possible I could try and I was When I read, your chapter on energy and metabolism, you'd listed like, coenzyme q ten and, like, various things that you can try for this.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Right.

Iain Campbell
And I I was, you know, meticulous. Like, I went through every single thing and I put them in this spreadsheet. And I I tried, you know, I'd order them. I would, like, try coenzyme q ten. I'd try, like, carnitine, all all the things.

And I felt like this should be easier, you know, like it should there shouldn't there should be clear advice on this in mental health treatment, you know. So I think I think you were describing this way ahead of it. It's time what we're now coming to is is seeing that these kind of mitochondrial markers, energy markers are things we should be measuring in patients and we should be looking to improve them. And we saw this in our pilot study, we saw significant reductions in blood lactate on a ketogenic diet in bipolar patients. And this has been a marker for many decades in psychiatry that's been of interest, and we saw it move in these patients, and I'll I can share more.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's funny that you're talking about, like, in the seventies they were measuring lactate levels Yes. Which is interesting because it never found its way into traditional psychiatry into regular practice. No. And there's also a lot of things you're talking about this energy problem in the brain and, Chris Farmer talks about brain his book Brain Energy and then my friends Casey and Kelly Mead wrote a book called Good Energy. It's all about our metabolic crisis, which is affecting both our weight and diabetes as well as our brain health and and and our psychiatric kind of illnesses.

And the secondary consequence of these is inflammation, but you can measure things like insulin resistance in the body by simple blood tests. This is really why I co founded Function Health

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Where you can get access to over a 110 initial biomarkers and you can add on all kinds of other things if you want to study a lot of the things that need to be looked at like insulin. Like nobody checks fasting insulin, right? But you can now measure through sophisticated tests which which are not that expensive, we can offer through function, looking at insulin resistance. You can look at cellular insulin resistance by measuring c peptide and insulin or you can look at your cholesterol profile. Yes.

Look at triglycerides and HDL which is an indicator of poor metabolic health. You're looking at your your, nutrient levels which is really important, like homocysteine which measures the b vitamins and vitamin d and b twelve folate. These are really important. And then the inflammatory markers like CRP and Yes. IL-six, TNF alpha, these are these are biomarkers you can measure in a regular lab test.

And even things like thyroid, cortisol, iron, all all these play a role in affecting our cognitive function and mental health. It should be pretty carefully looked at. And again, most these things are available through your basic function panel or add ons that you can add on and Yes. They should be the standard of care but people aren't getting them.

Iain Campbell
Absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Which is kind of why I'm like, I'm sick of doctors not doing this, I'm gonna cofound a company that can let people find out about this information and take advantage of it. That's like you had to do figuring it out on your own and suffering for years and years without any help.

Iain Campbell
Well, yeah, I wanted to thank you because you mentioned measuring insulin resistance in one of your patients who had a, like, mental health condition and this kinda indicating you could improve something. And I I I really think that one of the best things that could happen in psychiatry is to start measuring that in mental health patients, the HOMA IR, the insulin resistance marker. Because it's not perfect. Know, no one measure is gonna, you know, solve everything. But at least to get a kind of signal of metabolic health from people would be really helpful.

And I'm trying every which way to campaign for this to be a marker that people should look at is markers of insulin resistance in patients. Yeah. Because we know that those markers predict onset of psychiatric illness. In large, like big data studies, we can see that insulin resistance in early life is a marker that predicts future onset of psychiatric conditions. And it also means that people have more severe progression of psychiatric conditions.

So if we could get mental health, measuring, you know, like you described in this patient, markers of insulin resistance, this would be a real help.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, that's terrifying considering like one in four teenagers has pre diabetes. Yes. Or type two diabetes. Yes. And maybe if you expand the definition of how we define it, which I think is way too narrow.

Yes. It misses a lot of people who have metabolic dysfunction.

Iain Campbell
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You're probably talking about like one in two. Mean, forty percent of kids are overweight, almost every single one of those has some metabolic dysfunction.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's that's some degree of some resistance. And, you know, you mentioned something called HOMA IR, which is a it's a calculation that we make to kinda in indirectly measure insulin resistance.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
I used to do a test, it was called the glucose tolerance test with insulin, where you drink the equivalent of two Coca Colas and then measure fasting blood sugar and fasting insulin and then one and two hour insulin and blood sugar. Most doctors just measure blood sugar. Now there's a test that you should know about, which has just been developed through Quest that uses max spectrometry, is a kind of a more sophisticated way of measuring blood analytes that measures C peptide, which is a precursor for insulin and insulin. It gives you a ratio and it's as specific and predictive of insulin resistance as the, a more very invasive test that you do for research called the euglycemic clamp test. So it's kind of an amazing new advance and through Function Health we offer this.

I think we're one of the only people that are actually doing this now. And and we're seeing, you know, significant issues with this with this test and and the degree of insulin resistance that people have. So I think, you know, you you sort of look at the energy crisis and it really comes down to this this fuel partitioning problem and lack of ability to actually get energy, make energy because when you're even in the midst of plenty of sugar and starch and fuel Yes. Which we have an abundance of in western society Yes. We're still in an energy crisis.

It's like people are like, what do you mean? I'm like eating plenty of food. I'm eating like a lot of sugar and carbs. Why do I have an energy crisis? It's because at a cellular level, you've kind of busted your your cellular machinery that actually runs your metabolism and that leads to this catastrophic problem which, you know, some people shows up as type two diabetes and some people shows up as schizophrenia and some of those shows up as bipolar disease or depression or Yeah.

You know, a million other psychiatric illness.

Iain Campbell
I was watching your, interview with Andrew Huberman, the recent one I remember at the end you said, this, that these kind of like ancient survival mechanisms that kinda we're thinking along the same lines of of the you know, they regulate your metabolism and that this is kind of, at the root of, you know, what this dysfunction is. And I I think this makes sense in terms of mental illness because, you know, in ninety five percent of our time on earth, we're living in these conditions of scarcity. And you can store about 2,000 calories of glycogen as sugar in your body, but you can store well in excess of a 100,000 calories as fat. So it would be very important And

Dr. Mark Hyman
glycogen is a storage form of carbs.

Iain Campbell
Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And and the storage form

Dr. Mark Hyman
of fat was the fat you see in your belly.

Iain Campbell
Yes. Yes. And so it would be a survival advantage to be able to switch efficiently between these fuel sources. And particularly seasonally, like you give the example of like, you know, hibernation in bears for example, like they go into this there's some really interesting information about a specimen called Brad Marshall. He has a YouTube channel describing this.

But bears will go into periods of hibernation where they'll burn their body fat, and they're going to ketosis for long periods. And so you're switching from this like 2,000 calorie fuel source to a 100,000 calorie fuel source.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And bears go from honey to keto. Yeah.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's Oh, if only that was possible for me. But the I guess some people do that.

But yeah, the But you know, when we're talking about these seasonal variations, energy and metabolism, the most pronounced seasonal change is the switch between glucose metabolism and fatty acid ketone metabolism that happens throughout all of nature, the natural environment. And maybe, you know, when bipolar people in the winter are getting depressed and their their metabolism is suppressed, their circadian rhythm is suppressed, they're going to this energy conservation type of mode. Maybe their body is expecting ketosis like the natural world intended and you continue eating refined carbohydrates and sugars Yeah. Which just throws these systems into chaos because they're trying to suppress your metabolic function to conserve energy and survive. But you're throwing sugar continually at it instead of giving ketones, which are the evolutionary consistent adaptation that the body is.

And and to me, that's what ketosis felt like when I described, like, being on the bus. It felt like I was receiving something I'd always been looking for. I was like, this this feeling is what I've always wanted to feel, is to feel normal, to feel balance, to feel stable. And maybe we're bringing back some of these ancient evolutionary Yeah. Mechanisms to people and this is what's helping them, in in metabolic psychiatry treatment.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And that's true. And I think, you know, just for people listening, there are certain people who really do benefit from being on keto long term. But most of us throughout evolution have gone back and forth Yes. Between keto and carb metabolism, between burning fat and burning carbs.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Your body is like a hybrid car, right? You can burn gas, you can run electric. Yes. And so that's kind of We've lost that metabolic flexibility.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And we get our broken metabolism struggling to continue to run off of sugar when you beat it to death with too much sugar that Yes. Basically leads to this catastrophic downstream consequence that leaves everything from mental health issues

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
To Alzheimer's, to cancer Yes. To heart disease, to diabetes, to fatty liver. I mean, the list goes on and on. Yes. And so what people need to understand is that, you know, everybody needs to sort of figure out what's right for them.

But learning what's going on in your own biology through blood testing now and biomarker testing, if you do it, functionality is possible. Yes. And you can find you have some of these issues, even if your doctor doesn't know how to test for them or look at them.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And less than one percent of all diagnostic tests done in America measure insulin. Yes. You know? Or even measure the proper cholesterol profile, which can tell you if you have a more, metabolically driven cholesterol abnormalities such as large, number of lipid particles of LDL and small particles, which we can now measure. I want to sort of loop back a little bit after talking about some of the blood biomarkers and metabolomics.

And we're gonna be continuing to look for these using AI machine learning to have a really deep understanding of what are the patterns in the data. And I know your your institute at University of Edinburgh is actually examining these things Yes. Using deep deep analytics that we can now glean through. Looking at at millions of genetic variations at tens of thousands of blood metabolites, looking at things that we never could understand before Yes. We can start to kind of peer into the into the mind in a way we never had the capacity to.

So as we're starting to think about looking into the mind, talk to us about imaging. Because most people think, you know, I'm if I have a mental health issue, I don't need an MRI.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
But like, tell us about the idea of of functional MRIs. What are those? And what are the kinds of things you're seeing in people with various mental health issues with functional MRI

Iain Campbell
Yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Brain imaging?

Iain Campbell
So it's it's like you say, like, when you wanna look under the hood, know, when you wanna look in the brain when you're addressing psychiatric symptoms, but that's not been the approach of psychiatry generally. It's been very separate from neuroscience and because of this rift between Freud and Kraepel and so forth, and we've not been looking into the brain function through imaging and through these techniques that we have available. And now that we have these, we can look in the brain and see how is metabolism working, how is blood flow, so forth. And I actually did this myself. I went and got a private, MRI scan because I was like, I want to understand if there's something wrong in my brain.

Is there a is there a brain in there? You know? My my wife was joking, maybe did they find something? Was reassured, but but, you know, I thought there must be something physically wrong with my brain because it's so hard to live, it's so hard to function, to to work. Like, but then I got a brain scan and they couldn't find anything.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh, because they look at the structure,

Iain Campbell
the Yeah, absolutely. And and so they said it looks normal, like everything seems to be there and, you know, thankfully it's okay. But then it left me thinking about, no, my my life is, you know, very painful and chaotic and I need to understand why that is happening. And so I think the, like you say, the structural imaging has not been as helpful necessarily in the psychiatric conditions, but the metabolic imaging, measuring metabolites has been really interesting and it continues to become more interesting. So the the first thing that you see in brain imaging with, epilepsy, bipolar, some of the psychiatric conditions is elevated brain glutamate.

This is something you've talked about for a long time, but it it really an unfortunately, it's only becoming a kind of research trajectory now. In psychiatry, this elevated glutamate is contributing to excitability in the brain, hyperexcitability

Dr. Mark Hyman
in Yes. In in in American English, it's called Yes.

Iain Campbell
Oh, yes, sir.

Dr. Mark Hyman
What Yeah. Did he say? Oh, like, it took me a minute to actually realize what you're saying.

Iain Campbell
We can't pronounce consonants in Scotland. We we only have vowels. It's like Is is is

Dr. Mark Hyman
a yeah. It's sort of an amino acid derivative.

Iain Campbell
Yes. And and so you see this in epilepsy, you see this in bipolar, see this in schizophrenia. And we did this pilot study, the one that I mentioned, funded by Jan Buzuki. And so we looked at brain imaging to see what changes on a ketogenic diet in people with bipolar. And one of the remarkable findings we saw is that brain glutamate came down in these patients.

And this is something they measure in response to anti seizure medication. A ketogenic diet was originally an anti seizure treatment, Mayo Clinic in 1921, developed it for epilepsy where there's elevated glutamate excitatory activity in

Dr. Mark Hyman
the It was also the treatment for type one diabetes back in the day in Jocelyn in the nineteen nineteen hundreds and early, in the early twenties before insulin was developed.

Iain Campbell
Yes. We've got even before, like, the epilepsy application. Yeah. And and and I I think as far as I understand it, they saw some of the diabetes patients having seizure remission and so they that's how they started looking at its effects on the brain. But there's modern researchers now, Mark Fry at Mayo Clinic, now launching a large $3,000,000 ketogenic trial funded by Bizzy Keys to go back and revisit this for mental health conditions.

Just to give a little bit of context for why glutamate is interesting in bipolar, the elevated glutamate in systematic reviews, a major feature of bipolar in epilepsy, and reduction of glutamate is considered a marker of response to treatment. And the epilepsy treatments, are things like lamotrigine, valproate, carbamazepine.

Dr. Mark Hyman
These are used for bipolar disease?

Iain Campbell
These are all used for bipolar, yeah, absolutely. And so many of our treatments for bipolar came from epilepsy, and now we're seeing this other epilepsy treatment, ketogenic diet, many patients reporting remission or reduction of symptoms, pilot trials, case studies. Chris Palmer's been publishing case studies about this for many years. Georgia Eads published a large retrospective analysis. Shivani Seti using it her clinic.

Many, many patients reporting online. I mean, I document about one hundred and sixty four about seven years ago and now it's many thousands of patients reporting effects of ketosis. And so I think when you see this anti seizure treatment that is affecting glutamate in the brain, like with the medications, maybe this is another treatment that will come over to bipolar in psychiatry from the epilepsy field. So in in the patients in our pilot trial, we saw significant reductions in brain glutamate, about 10, about 11 to 13% reductions.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And you can see this on functional MRI brain imaging tests?

Iain Campbell
Yes. MRIs, yes. And so this was, magnetic resonance spectroscopy looking at metabolites that change in the brain. We looked at many but glutamate was the most significantly changed. And the reduction we saw was about, like I say, 11 to 13.

And the reductions you typically see in three months, for example, on the Motrigi might be like 6%, But we're seeing much larger reductions in six to eight weeks of a ketogenic diet. So this is really interesting because this is a real central marker for epilepsy. This is an epilepsy treatment. We have epilepsy treatments in bipolar, so we're seeing both the treatment modalities and the markers translating.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Who knew that diet could treat disease? Yeah. Exactly. What a revolutionary idea.

Iain Campbell
I mean, it's it's moving. I mean, to be clear, this is only a pilot study. It's 20 patients. We can't draw any definitive conclusion, but the but it is an interesting kind of avenue forward I feel.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Glutamate is a very excitatory neurotransmitter. Yes. It it's it's also, the target of of treatment in Alzheimer's.

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And and again, Alzheimer's is an inflammation of the brain. So all these are inflammatory problems that show up in different ways in different people. Yeah. And and you see pretty increased levels of glutamate. We all we all see other things.

You see, you know, changes in in, connectivity in the frontal cortex and the default mode network gets hyperactive, the amygdala gets hyperactive in a lot of these diseases. So you get basically parts of the brain that should not be overactive Yes. Are overactive and things that are should be active like, you know, your frontal cortex are Yes. Reduced in their function. It's pretty amazing when you see these trials.

Like, even using things like intra intranasal insulin

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
For depression and cognitive

Iain Campbell
Yes. Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Impairment. Right?

Iain Campbell
Yeah. Absolutely. It's it's it's so interesting how changing the metabolism in the brain can fix all these neurotransmitter Mhmm. Issues potentially as well. Like, you know, fixing the car engine and everything else sorts itself out versus trying to address all the individual neurotransmitters or symptoms.

The glutamate story is one of the most interesting because, you know, like, a lot of the mental health research is focused on serotonin, for example, like serotonin reuptake inhibitors and, but glutamate is by far the most abundant neurotransmitter in the brain. It's in millimolar concentrations, and many of the other monoamines are only in micromolar concentrations. And so it's a really abundant neurotransmitter. And the other kind of estimates are that maybe 80% of brain energy is dedicated to this, glutamatergic neurotransmission. So in terms of brain energy metabolism, like, you know, Chris Palmer talks about, glutamate is contributing to a significant amount of what brain energy is being used for, and it's really much more abundant than the other neurotransmitters.

But the trouble is you can't people have tried to make medications that affect it. And because it's so consequential for metabolism, people get seizures, like significant side effects of trying to change glutamate. So all the research funding and focus went to the other monoamine neurotransmitters where you could modulate them without this risk of glutamate. But also arguably it lacked the upside of changing glutamate. You know, someone, I suppose, in Toronto just there and Robert McCollum Smith, one of the researchers described it like, you know, glutamate is the volume dial and other the other neurotransmitters are the treble basin, you know, it's like the big one.

And but you just can't do anything with it without people having severe side effects. Whereas, ketosis is creating, like you described, like a metabolic shift in the brain that leads to a change in neurotransmission that doesn't have these, types of side effects associated with some of the early ways they tried to change glutamate. So I I think ketosis as a metabolic way of improving glutamate metabolism in the brain is a promising area for investigation. And I have a paper on this in Nature Journal of Molecular Psychiatry kind of talking about these dynamics of glutamate and

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's such a shame because, you know, you're talking about are such simple interventions

Iain Campbell
Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That cost very little that are diet related or pennies of potential supplements a

Iain Campbell
day. Yes.

Dr. Mark Hyman
And, you know, there's funding that comes from interested philanthropists. Yes. Very little from any governments and none from the pharmaceutical industry because it's not in their best interest. Number one, to study this. And two, it messes up with their business model which is selling people lifelong drugs for psychiatric care.

It's it's in fact, think it's the third leading class of drugs that are prescribed out there after statins and GI drugs or maybe a second. It goes back and forth between GI drugs and psychiatric drugs. And many these drugs are tremendous side effects. They are marginally effective, and and they they don't really cause cure. They don't really cure the problem.

They just maybe mitigate the symptom. And they often don't work that well. They may sometimes make things worse in other ways. So for you, you know, and and lot of people you're studying, know, recovery is is possible now. I mean, you know, we we never really thought it was possible to cure these problems.

And and maybe it's not perfect for everybody because there's many complicating factors, but men people have such a stigma around mental illness and such a, they're so pathologized in how we talk about mental health. I mean, if you have, you know, rheumatoid arthritis, no one, like, stigmatizes you. Yes. You know, it's always too bad that they have arthritis. Yes.

But like, when you have mental illness it's like, you know, those homeless people on the street are you know, these And there it's like Yeah. It's such a it's such a stigma. And, how do we need to kind of evolve this whole idea about about mental illness?

Iain Campbell
I actually wanted to ask you about the the Foucault, text you mentioned that there's different conceptualizations. I'm I'm interested in that. What were the ones that you noticed,

Dr. Mark Hyman
the book that he talked about?

Iain Campbell
Yeah. I'm interested to

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, you know, it's a fascinating book. Mean, read it forty years ago, so I'm not sure I remember the whole thing. But it really struck me that at each time in history, there were different ideas about And mental and and it and it could be that you were, you know, basically possessed by demons or it could be that you were you were, you know, kind of, you know, visited by angels and God. Know, something of Joan of Arc, and she probably was crazy. Right?

But what was going on there?

Iain Campbell
Yeah. So

Dr. Mark Hyman
And you know, and there's many people who've got history like that. Yes. And they they often had outsized effects. And then, you know, the Freudian view and then now is a different view. But I think now we're we're coming to a more sophisticated scientific view or be able

Iain Campbell
to ask

Dr. Mark Hyman
the questions in a way that we never were able to ask before. So I think I think this is an incredibly hopeful moment in psychiatry. Think it's not happening fast enough. I think most people haven't heard of all this stuff before which is why you're coming on the podcast. And I think, you know, what I would love to hear about, you now presented at Mayo Clinic, you've published in major major journals like Nature.

This is starting to get some play out there in the scientific world. Tell us about the Metabolic Psychiatry Hub that you helped develop in The UK and and what are what are you hoping to see in in terms of the work you're doing? And I know you're developing a large controlled trial, which is sort of the gold standard of evidence. Yes. What what are you looking to show with that?

And and tell us more about that.

Iain Campbell
So, I mean, the hub for metabolic psychiatry in in a really remarkable thing because, as you metabolism has not been a major focus in psychiatry for a long time despite all the metabolic problems patients have had going back to the most earliest observations of psychiatrists. And so we put in a bid to the Medical Research Council in The UK, which is essentially the largest government funded research funding scheme. And it's a really competitive scheme. Each university gets one application, so you have to be the best application in the university. And then every university in The UK puts in an application and they choose the best ones from those applications.

Wow.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's pretty competitive.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. There's There couldn't be a more competitive scheme essentially because it's so high quality. And, so we But I I I think one of the things that we were able to show and this is a major patient priority, millions of patients having these metabolic problems alongside their psychiatric diagnosis. We know this, the data has been there for many decades now, and this is a prime concern of patients, a huge contributor to suicidality and poor, physical health outcomes. And so it's really clear that regardless of what anyone thinks about what causes psychiatric illness, the one thing we do all agree on is that we need to fix physical health in people living with mental health conditions.

It's a major priority. And, the data shows that psychiatrists know this, clinicians know this, patients know this, we all agree we need to work on this, and so there's a clear area that we can make progress. And so we were funded, about 4,000,000, and the Bazookis also provided co funding for it, to really start a large government funded program to investigate, metabolic health and mental illness, which is fantastic. And we've worked streams on genetic research, population health data, clinical trials, patient experience, and and really we're trying to bring the patients You got the award.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You you won the prize.

Iain Campbell
Yes. Yes. We we It's we got the fantastic.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Congratulations.

Iain Campbell
Thank you. Thank you. But but appreciate I that people like yourself have been signing the bell on this for decades leading to this. So, you know, it's it's really like the dam is now

Dr. Mark Hyman
Shouting in the wilderness and somebody's recognizing it. It's quite hopeful.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. But I mean that's what's led to this momentum is people such as yourselves, like I say Chris Palmer, Georgia Eid, like really ringing the bell for a long time before this came about. And this has led to now the dam breaking and there's really sort of major government funding coming behind this and I think this is the right time for it. And, I wanted to thank you for, you know, raising this and speaking about it for so long before there was support for it. So it's really a remarkable thing to see it now reaching this level.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Thank you. Yeah. When they first you say some new idea, they think you're crazy. Yes. And then they say, well maybe there's something to it and then they're like, oh we thought this all along.

Iain Campbell
Yes. Exactly. Becomes It's something like that.

Dr. Mark Hyman
So for people listening out there who are struggling with mental health issues and who've tried a lot of things and feel like it's a lost cause, you know, what what would you want them to know?

Iain Campbell
It's really hard living with these conditions. I I was very fortunate because I had a, in my family, my mother, like I said, a brain aneurysm and was really, had, you severe symptoms for a long time, and my father essentially looked after her whilst working, whilst looking after all of us. And at the same time, was living with bipolar disorder, and I was I was very fortunate to have a family that were supportive of me, particularly my father. He was looked after not only my mother, also myself. And I was I was very, very fortunate to have that.

And I really I really empathize with people that don't have that kind of support in their life. And so I would say that the the first thing is to find someone that can really, look out for you and that you can trust. And hopefully, that's a family member, but maybe if not, it can be a psychiatrist, a doctor. And and if you don't find the right one, you just keep trying until you find you really need one person in your life that's looking out for you, that's gonna, like, not give up. And for me, that was, my family.

My wife has been very supportive, my father. But I'd say that's the kinda one of the keys to surviving this is to really have someone that you can trust. Because there's times when your brain isn't working well enough to to know what to do yourself, and you need someone that you can trust to speak to. And the second thing is just to really educate yourself about the condition because we're we're advancing science very quickly now in understanding these conditions and our understanding is evolving each year. And these metabolic aspects, the condition are becoming much more in in in focus as we go on.

And so to really, you know, access resources, try to understand what the condition is beyond these you know, you're saying about these maps that don't fit the territory. Like, there's so many maps that we've been through, and there's new maps evolving that are are better fitting the landscape. And I think Metabolic Psychiatry, these resources like Metabolic Mind or YouTube channels are places where you can find information about mental health and metabolic health that could be useful.

Dr. Mark Hyman
That's amazing. So thank you. You know, your work is just so tremendous and I can't wait to see what comes out in your in your clinical trials. We're gonna be keeping a close eye on you're doing at the University of Edinburgh. From my perspective, there's so much hope out there for people who are struggling with mental health issues because we we now have a new way of thinking about it, based on root causes, based on the body as a system and systems Basic medicine for psychiatric illnesses, you know, the application that it's functional medicine.

But a lot of people who are outside of functional medicine are coming to the same conclusions just by seeing what the data shows and following the breadcrumbs and the data which is what I did. And we're using, you know, multimodal diagnostic tools, you know, genetics Yes. Blood biomarkers, metabolomics, brain imaging to really move beyond this whole Yeah. Just listing of symptoms and one size fits all. You have bipolar disease, you get this cocktail of drugs, you're schizophrenic, you get this cocktail of drugs, you're depressed, you get this cocktail of drugs.

That era is over. For anybody still trying to figure this out, you know, try to find a good functional medicine doctor. You can go ifm.org, you can come see us at Ultra Wellness Center. We've been dealing with this for a long time with great success. And we we have to kind of move away from this idea of just this maintenance of drug therapy and compliance with drug therapy instead of kind of moving to a more recovery model where you can recover, you know?

Yes. Like can you recover from autism? Can you recover from Alzheimer's? Yes. Can you recover from schizophrenia?

Can you recover from bipolar disease? The answer if you would ask, you know, most physicians would be no. But we're now learning the answer is hell yes. Yes. You can.

And there's examples of this all around. And I've seen it personally. I've had patients with this who've recovered over and over again using this model. So to me it's an incredibly hopeful time and what we really need it and you know, instead of a bunch of guys who aren't scientists like me, I'm a doctor, you know, just saying a bunch of stuff that sounds crazy. We now have folks like you who are actually doing the hard academic work at top universities the world like Harvard and Stanford and Mayo Clinic and University of Edinburgh who are actually mapping out what a future of psychiatric treatment might look like that that destigmatizes illness, that gives people hope, that provides a roadmap for trying things.

And people can try things. I mean, you know, I think that's really why I I write the books that I've written. The Ultramind Solution is is a little dated but it's still ahead of its time and if you follow things in there it often work.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. Yeah. Obviously.

Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, I have so many patients that go up. People go to me, just say, doctor Hyman, read your Ultramind I cured my bipolar. I'm like, did? I'm like, yeah, good. Okay.

Iain Campbell
I mean, like reading that chapter back, it's funny how much it it fits the the now the research trajectories are coming into mainstream, it's really remarkable mitochondrial function, energy, metabolism, those kind of biomarkers.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Goes, yeah. It's gut microbiome, all of it.

Iain Campbell
Yeah. Yeah. And and now we have things we can potentially do. You know, we need to do large RCTs. We're in the early pilot stages of research.

So, you know, I'm not going out saying everyone with psychiatric conditions should just do a ketogenic diet. We need to really research this in detail and do the RCTs and really understand this before, but but at least there's there's things that are possible at the moment, know?

Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, as a therapeutic trial for six to eight weeks, it takes a little while to become fat adapted but you know, six to eight weeks, twelve weeks along with a multivitamin fish oil, vitamin d Yes. The magnesium, the methylating nutrients like b twelve Yes. B six, folate. Pretty little downside to that for most people and there's a lot of upside. Yeah.

And and so whatever you're suffering from like you should If you can't find someone to tell you what to do, learn about it yourself. And now that you know we have access to, you know, I mean, think about it, you know, the average person today has access to more knowledge at their fingertips than ever before in human history. You know, some person in Bangladesh has more access to world's knowledge than the president of The United States had in nineteen sixties or seventies.

Iain Campbell
Yes. Yes. And, I think that there's abundant opportunities to, participate now in this in investigating this. You can sign up for clinical trials as a participant and you'll have full support of a psychiatrist, dietitian in exploring this, as a treatment. So this trial's launched all over the world now because of, Busy Key.

There's other, public funders coming into this now. So there's there's many opportunities to do this in a way that's, safe working with a psychiatrist, dietitian, and then it would give you an opportunity to contribute to the scientific understanding at the same time. So I really recommend people, as patients, try and get involved and try and let's move this forward, let's understand how it works, for the biomarkers. Yeah. And let's make it, yeah.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Amazing. So we're gonna put links to everything called medicspsychiatryhub.com which is your hub in The UK. Metabolic Minds from the Bizq Group is great. There's a lot of papers we talked about. We'll link to those in in the show notes.

Ian, thank you so much for the work you do, for being on the podcast and giving hope to millions and millions of people around the world who are struggling. A billion people.

Iain Campbell
You so much.

Dr. Mark Hyman
It's a billion person problem.

Iain Campbell
Right? Yeah. Thank you so much for helping me on my personal journey with your books and and for setting the alarm on this for a long time. I appreciate it.

Dr. Mark Hyman
Thank you. Well, thanks so much Ian. It's been great to have you on the podcast. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. You can find me on all social media channels at Doctor Mark Hyman.

Please reach out, I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the doctor Hyman show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Doctor Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more. Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on The Doctor Hyman show.

This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness Center, my work at Cleveland Clinic, and Function Health where I am chief medical officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests' opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services.

If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner. And if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness Center at Ultra Wellness Center dot com, and request to become a patient. It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed health care practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the public. So I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible.

Thanks so much again for listening.